COGITO Talks… Roots of Wisdom: Indigenous perspectives for policymakers

This conversation took place at the 2025 OECD Latin American Rural Development Conference, Rural-Urban Connections: Pathways to Sustainable Development, which took place in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil between 25-28 November 2025.

---

Blurb 

The 2025 OECD Report Reinforcing Rural Resilience reveals that OECD regions have seen a significant loss of forests, with approximately 10% of their forest cover disappearing between 2000 and 2020. This decline is driven by a combination of factors, including land conversion for agriculture, urban expansion, and the increasing demand for natural resources. Some countries and regions have experienced even more severe losses, particularly in areas where deforestation and forest fires have been widespread.

This loss of forest cover has profound implications for biodiversity, carbon sequestration, and the overall health of ecosystems highlights the changes in forest cover across different OECD countries and regions, providing a snapshot of the environmental challenges faced by rural areas. 

To discuss solution-based approaches to this issue, we do not need to necessarily turn to new innovations or technologies, but rather we can look to past wisdom of indigenous knowledge in how to care for nature in a long-sustaining manner. To discuss such approaches, Shayne MacLachlan from the OECD sits down with two impressive scholars, Edson Krenak from Cultural Survival, Brazil and Adwoa Serwaa Ofori, from University College Dublin. Have a listen. 

---

To learn more, visit OECD Latin American Rural Development Conference and the OECD’s work on Rural Development. Find out more about Cultural Survival and Citizen Rural Research Lab. 

---

---

Transcript 

Host 

Welcome to OECD Podcast: where policy meets people. 

Shayne 

Hello from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. It’s Shane with MacLachlan here from the OECD. Happy Movember, it’s the first thing to say. I’m sporting a mustache which is getting quite ticklish at this time of the month but only days to go.

I’m here at the OECD Rural Development Conference and I just pulled aside two really interesting people, Edson Krenak from Brazil, and Adwoa Ofori who was born in Ghana but has studied a lot in Malawi and Edson is a specialist regarding indigenous communities in the forestry sector and Adwoa in the agricultural sector. They come from different parts of the world, have a listen. 

So Edson, let’s start with you. Just tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Edson  

Hi, my name is Edson Krenak. I’m from Krenak people in Brazil. I work with Cultural Survival and Search Coalition, advancing and defending Indigenous people’s rights around the world. I’m also a PhD candidate at Vienna University and the main focus of my work and research is how policies, laws and political solutions can address indigenous needs, priorities and issues in the world. 

 Shayne 

And Adwoa, what’s your story? 

Adwoa 

Hi, so my name is Adwoa Serwaa Ofori. I’m a researcher and the principal investigator on the SANKOVA project in University College Dublin, Ireland. This is a Research Ireland funded project. And in this project, we are looking at integrating indigenous knowledge with climate smarts agricultural technologies for sustainable food production and our project is based in Malawi. 

Shayne 

Thanks so much for those introductions. Before we were riffing a little bit about the concept of indigenous people and communities in different parts of the world and indeed we’re here in Latin America. Edson you were talking about that and Adwoa  you were talking about your experience as well in Africa. Maybe Adwoa you can describe the concept of indigenous people and what it means to you there in Africa. 

Adwoa   

Thanks very much. I think that concept of indigenous is actually very interesting because where I come from, so I come from Ghana, I’m doing this work in Malawi, I’ve noticed throughout my engagement in Ghana and with other African people from other African countries, you don’t really come across someone saying they are indigenous to a place, they’ll just tell you the particular tribe or ethnicity they come from. 

So, I am an Ashanti in Ghana, the person will say they are Ashanti or Ga or Ewe. Nigerian friends would just say, and I would just ask, “So are you Yoruba, are you Hausa?”. Or with Kenyans, I’ll just ask, “Are you Lua, are you Masai?”. And the same with Malawi, they’ll tell me, “I’m Chicewa” or they’ll tell me that tribe they are from. Nobody actually says indigenous or “I come from this particular country but I’m not indigenous”. 

So it’s a very interesting concept comparing to other parts of the world where people would actually say they are indigenous to the place or they come from a country but they are not indigenous. I haven’t really come across that much on the African continent. We just say where we come from as in the particular tribal ethnicity. 

I think the other interesting thing is that especially for me as a Ghanaian people can ask the question, “wofiri he?”. “wofiri he?” the translation is “Where are you from?”. And the answer that is expected if you are from your mother’s family because we have the matrilineal and patrilineal systems.

If you are from your mother’s family you stay to your mother’s village. If you are from your father’s family you stay to your father’s village but I think that is basically how far it goes concerning where you come from. But as to the indigenous to a place where you are not indigenous even though you are a citizen I have not really come across that much on the continent which is quite interesting and different from other parts of the world. 

Shayne 

And Edson, what about that concept of indigenous people here in Latin America and in Brazil? 

 Edson 

Indigenous peoples in Brazil and most of the countries they are aligned, the definition is aligned with the provision given by the ILO Convention, the International Labour Organisation, Convention 169 on indigenous and tribal people.

The term indigenous peoples, most of the countries especially Brazil and Latin America are related to the minority groups that faced the colonialism and the settle policies to remove those communities from these lands, from their traditional lands. And one of the biggest impact, I think is one difference from Africa experience, was the laws of most of their languages, their traditional culture, ceremonies and their practices. 

Most of the state policies in the past were aimed to integrate and assimilate, those communities, those people into what’s so called a ‘new state society’. Speaking European language, implementing European ways of dealing with the territory, the lands, etc. It changed food, it changed the healthcare system, the culture, the education, many aspects of their lives. 

After centuries of these policies, actually who remained indigenous or loyal or was able to keep their cultures, nowadays they are known as indigenous peoples. And nowadays protected along tribal people under international laws that are very important to mention that because international laws protects and providing protection safeguards for indigenous and tribal peoples.

They are different from local communities, traditional communities, which are protected by national laws, domestic laws, but indigenous and tribal rights to self-determination, to protect their culture, to speak their language, to develop their own self-governance systems are protected by international laws. That’s why the big difference is historical, but also a legal status nowadays celebrated by UN Declaration of Indigenous People’s Rights, the ILO Convention I just mentioned and other international mechanisms. 

Shayne 

That’s really great, Edson. I mean, maybe you could just tell us a little bit more about why forestry and the forestry sector is so important for indigenous people here in Brazil.  

Edson 

Forests are very, very important and they represent actually one fundamental difference, how indigenous peoples in Brazil and the state’s society sees it. One of the challenge is to try to bring this indigenous perspective to the policymakers, to understand that forests are not a space or the post of resource to be extracted. It’s not a carbon sink, it’s not a service place to only have value and importance because it helps us to have a clear air or food or anything like that. 

For indigenous peoples, most of them in Brazil, forest is actually deeply connected to our identity. We also call ourselves, “We are forest”. We have every person is a tree and we call the forest our relatives, the forest is our memory, our history, is our relative, it is the living entity that informs us about the policies, the laws, the rules, the engagement, the governance, how we engage with the forest. 

It’s very different, it’s a really deep shift when we see how many other societies see forests, they create policies to manage forests. For indigenous peoples, we base on the forest wisdom, how we learn by living for centuries in these spaces, how to create policies to protect the forests. Many people think the forest, the water creates the forest, the management of people creates the forests. For indigenous peoples, we believe that forests, they are the mothers of the rivers, the mothers of the food, the people, everything else.

When you walk to the forest, if you go to Munduruku land, to Krenakland, to Yanomami land, these three indigenous peoples very well known in Brazil, they will talk about where their ancestors grew up, they were born, they were buried there, where they named their relatives, where they learned about their medicine in the forest, where they learned about the sacred places to be protected.

They even developed like a complex cartographic knowledge to walk through the forest with kids, with teenagers, with youth, with elders, without papers, without technology, GPS. For them, trees, different types of fruits, different types of landscapes inside of the forests, where and have been their GPS, their cartographic knowledge in these spaces.  

Then, to define forests for us, it’s challenging because we have to translate it. Nowadays, we, in this effort to translate what forest is for us in Brazil, we coined a term “Florestania”. Florestania is, in a harsh, quick translation, to be a “Forestenship”, before citizenship. Citizenship is this belonging to the city. The indigenous peoples, we say, we belong to the forest. That’s why we have a Forestenship, we have Florestania, which means the heart of our governance systems, our policies, our lives, our cultures, our language, even, is the heart of it is the forest. 

Shayne 

Thanks, Edson. I mean, that’s just so interesting and made me think as you were talking about my own country in Australia and indigenous communities and people that have that special sacred relationship with nature and particularly animals and the different elements, I guess, that grow in nature. I mean, in Africa, Adwoa, would you say that things are quite different? I mean, you’re going to talk about agriculture and agriculture sector, but tell us about how your community engages with agriculture in parts of Africa that you’re familiar with. 

 Adwoa 

Yeah, well, with regards to the agricultural sector, it’s important to them because that’s what they depend on for their livelihoods, for their subsistence, for everything. And so everything goes back to the agriculture and that’s why it’s so important to them. And I just want to pick up, I just want to highlight something that Edson was saying about the forest, the sacredness. 

Interestingly, even though I would say that on the African continent, we wouldn’t call ourselves indigenous, some of these perspective, you’d have similar perspectives. So the forest is sacred, so they are parts of the forest where you would not go or they are particular rivers where they are certain places like the heads of the rivers. They don’t cut down the trees there because it is sacred. 

And then when you take a step back, they are just preserving its sustainability, but the ancestors in their wisdom do not touch those parts. So there is that sort of similarity, even though we would say we don’t, I mean, I haven’t seen us as indigenous, but we have these similar sort of perspectives when it comes to respecting the forests and particular forests being sacred. Yeah, so that’s what I wanted to just pick up on, which I found interesting. Yeah. 

Shayne 

That’s great, Adwoa. Thanks so much for digging into that a little bit today. I mean, in terms of the programs or efforts or the support that’s been most instrumental, ensuring your indigenous community in parts of Africa can engage in agriculture in their own terms, what would those be? 

 Adwoa 

Okay, I think I’ll give two instances, two examples. The first example I would give about communities engaging on their terms and their initiatives, I would use the example that I was told about with the Meteorological Office, where they give forecasts for the coming season so that the farmers know how to prepare for their planting.

And interestingly, the Meteorological Officer was telling me that when they go to communities, they first ask the community members for their forecasts in terms of their indigenous forecasts. So for example, they’ll say that if the birds have built their nests going in a particular direction, let’s say towards the east, then they know the rains are coming from the east. 

If there are a lot of, and currently they are saying that they are expecting a lot of heavy rains because there’s a prevalence of ants. And so the Meteorological Officer said when they get these forecasts from the communities, that’s what they do first, they don’t just go in and tell them this is the scientific forecast. They ask them what their forecast is and interestingly, the forecast given by the rural communities aligns a lot with the scientific, what the Meteorological Office are expecting. 

So for example, the communities are saying there’s a prevalence of ants, so they are expecting heavy rains and the Meteorological Officer also predicting heavy rains within the coming seasons. The other aspect I’ll talk about is the fact that when it comes to the rural communities, the agricultural extension officers, the crops officers are very, very involved and very engaged with the local communities. 

So even in the projects I am working on, for us to go to the communities, have the discussion with them, have the experimental funds with them, the agricultural extension officers were involved right from the very beginning. We go to the communities with them and engage with them, with the community members. And even with the planting that we are doing, the agricultural extension officers go to the communities and help with the layout of the land, help with the monitoring of the plants, in the monitoring of the crops. 

So they are very, very involved and so I think that also helps because in us trying to bring back the indigenous systems and the indigenous knowledge, even if the project is not running, you still have the agricultural extension officers who a lot of them understand these because a lot of people when you speak to them, everybody has that story of what their grandmother told them, what their grandfather showed them on the land and how they’re concerning indigenous  systems. So even if the project comes to an end, you still have them in contact with the community members and they can still be promoting these. So I think that helps in that respect. 

Shayne 

And Edson, I mean what stood out for you in terms of some of those programs, support or policies that have been instrumental in making sure that indigenous communities engage in forestry on their own terms? 

 Edson 

The most important thing about indigenous people’s engagement for a policy is to have them in the design in the policies, not to be implementing the policies. And one example is in Brazil we have the PNGATI, the Portuguese word but stands for National Policy for Territorial Environmental Management of Indigenous Lands.

And another great program is called PDA is community-led development programs because in Brazil we have many types of indigenous peoples. We have hunters, we have gathers, we have fisher communities, we have fishing communities, we have also farmers, communities and communities that vary all these kind of economic models. 

But the important thing about these programs implemented here, they are led by indigenous people. They are called designed by indigenous peoples. There was not the government coming and proposing them to do this, this and that. No, the government came in the past, many ambitious and courageous governments they said, “Look, what do you need?”.

Because indigenous people have historically faced land grabbing, the impact of mining, the impact of a huge enterprise contaminating their lands, their territories. They were suffering their cultures, their identities, everything else. 

Look, we don’t want only to protest and to defend our territories. We don’t want to be creating like safeguards to live in safety. We want to see our territories thriving again, being protected, being fruitful, but also being a spot for the Brazilian society, other communities to come and share with us. For example, there are many seed banks, communities share with other communities, especially they share knowledge-based crops. 

For example, these crops are not informed or driven by markets or by demands, outside demands, but many of these seed banks are driven by climate change, by the conditions or the needs of the territory to be restored. Then I have seen many great projects like really being implemented, bringing not only restoration to the environment, the beautiful forests, the forests protected forests is in standing, but also the economic development for these communities. 

Shayne 

Yeah, that’s really awesome. I’m just learning so much listening to you and engaging in these topics, but we have to draw things to a close. If you had the power to change the current rules or the policies in relation to indigenous communities and the agricultural sector, what would those be? Adwoa. 

Adwoa  

I think that would be helping them get access to the indigenous seeds and bringing back more of the indigenous knowledge to help them with their farming practices because these are resilience that have been used down the centuries and also because the indigenous seeds are resilient and adapted, already adapted to the climate.

So at least whatever the case, however bad the yield goes, they would have something and they would have diversified crops and harvest so that they would not be negatively impacted in their food security. 

Shayne 

And Edson, if you had the authority to change one thing regarding the rules and policies in place at the moment, what would those be in relation to indigenous people and the forestry sector? 

Edson 

Definitely is the recognition of indigenous governance as a legitimate environmental management system through direct finance. We cannot recognise rights, we cannot just have a strong policy if you don’t provide funds, direct funds without bureaucratic barriers for them to access and implement in their own way.  

Shayne 

So that’s it from us today. It’s been pretty wild, bit freestyle, bit spontaneous, but that’s great too. Thanks for listening. If you want to know more about rural development policy and particularly on forestry and agriculture and indigenous people and communities at the OECD, we have lots of information on the web. Have a look, Google it and we’ll see you on OECD podcasts really soon. 

Host 

To listen to other OECD podcasts, find us on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts and SoundCloud.com/OECD.